tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4714546599403078772.post3227548116210050311..comments2024-02-16T04:38:27.816+00:00Comments on Principles of Parsimony: The Meaning of Life. Or, do theists ever even talk to atheists?Ben Dhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/01430188441472807944noreply@blogger.comBlogger9125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4714546599403078772.post-51875186884267425752013-06-12T03:06:42.935+01:002013-06-12T03:06:42.935+01:00Maple Leaf arrogance,[url=http://www.saxbycoffee.c...Maple Leaf arrogance,[url=http://www.saxbycoffee.com/mkus.php]Michael Kors handbags[/url], said: without him,[url=http://www.freshbrewedcodes.com/cluk.php]christian louboutin[/url], will not necessarily small. Because even without Cao Cao, Lu Bu will never become the dominant Han. It [url=http://pickensprogressonline.com/inc.php]toms outlet[/url] she looked up. 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Certainly your answers indicate where we will agree on some things and disagree on others. As a Christian who believes that God is in control of everything, I don't necessarily think that God takes away our freedom to make our own choices. The Bible teaches there are elements of both. At times you see God exercising complete control over an individuals actions. At other times he is asking us to choose to serve him (I'd say this is the grand majority of the time). There would be no reason to command us to follow Christ and obey him if the decision wasn't completely up to us. All that to say, I agree that life would be meaningless if someone else were living our life for us. I do, however, also think that life is worth living when we choose to have Christ living through us. Obviously you are going to disagree with me there. :) <BR/><BR/>I think you have admitted that there is a certain sense in which we are not in control of our life and it's meaning. At what measurable, definable point do you get to assume control? I think you would have to agree that when you are first born you have zero control over the outcome of your life. You are at the complete mercy of your mother as to whether or not you make it to the next day. You don't get to decide when or what you eat, where you sleep, where you live or...the list could go on. As you get older you get more choices, but are you ever really in control of all meaning/direction in life? To hold a belief like yours, I would think you need to answer such questions. Just a thought.<BR/><BR/>I'm enjoying our conversation. You challenge me to think...Matt Winquisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09840589629093481020noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4714546599403078772.post-12529628055520974152007-09-27T17:02:00.000+01:002007-09-27T17:02:00.000+01:00oryx orange - I'm glad you liked the quote, Huxley...oryx orange - I'm glad you liked the quote, Huxley is one of my favourite 19th century figures. You say that for you the important question is not "Does God exist?", but "Will my life be better with a God in it?". I would point out that whether a belief will make your life better has nothing to do with whether that belief is true or not - I might believe my life would be better with a million pounds in my bank account, but sadly that has no bearing on whether there is or not! <BR/><BR/>Louise - thanks for stopping by, I'm glad you like the post.<BR/><BR/>Matt - I'm not sure I understand what you're saying perfectly, so please correct me if I don't seem to be answering your question. I think that we obviously have complete control over our own actions, and by our own actions we can affect our course through life, although this will of course also be affected by other people's actions as they impact on us, and by random happenstance. Our choices are not limited in any sense except by the obvious physical constraints of the universe (we're not going to start randomly flying anytime soon, for instance), and by whatever limits we may ourselves put upon them. As to whether meaning is tied up in being the sole authority over our choices in life, I'm not really sure how to answer that. If we weren't the sole authority, then someone else would be living our life for us, and so I can't see how meaning would be relevant to that life, as it's not our own. I must admit I don't really understand how we could not be the sole authority over our choices. What other options are there? Hopefully that has at least in part answered your questions!Ben Dhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01430188441472807944noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4714546599403078772.post-15965902105014745062007-09-26T20:51:00.000+01:002007-09-26T20:51:00.000+01:00Ben - Thanks for the kind response. I'm curious wh...Ben - Thanks for the kind response. I'm curious whether or not you believe that we are in complete control of our destiny. I will definitely continue to check back.<BR/><BR/>If I'm understanding your reply correctly, I gather that at the very least you believe that we are in charge of attaching meaning to our lives in whatever areas we desire. Does that, in your view, extend to all areas of life...both what has happened in the past and what will happen in the future? Your original post suggested as much in the following, "We make our own meaning in this life - we can choose what we are here for, and I find this far more worthy of celebrating than the forced imposal of another's will on our life. I certainly do not find it depressing. Look on it as a choice between admiring the works of another painter, or being given an easel, a canvas and a palette and told to paint what you want - I know which I would find the more liberating." Anyway, just making sure I'm reading you right. <BR/><BR/>In sum, I'm curious as to how much control you believe we have in deciding what our lives will look like and the direction they will take. Is it limited in any sense, or is our control completely uninhibited? Is meaning in life tied up in having sole authority over our life's path, our choices, etc.? I look forward to reading your response.Matt Winquisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09840589629093481020noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4714546599403078772.post-77217046766668690652007-09-26T20:34:00.000+01:002007-09-26T20:34:00.000+01:00Google is always serving me 'meaning of life' post...Google is always serving me 'meaning of life' posts, but I wanted to stop here and thank you for the very interesting post(s).<BR/><BR/>I've made it my business to ask the MOL question to everyone I meet. If you're breathing, I ask for your meaning of life answer...but I never "pre-qualify" a person based on their belief system. Viva la difference and all that.<BR/><BR/>Now that I'm older (ahem, I mean wiser), I stick closer to the 'keep it simple' rule. For me, it simply comes down to just talking to the person sitting next to you...with the intention to learn, not with the purpose of changing their mind. When you do this, you are set on an amazing journey of discovery. <BR/><BR/>With the assumption that you're breathing while reading this, I want to thank you by extending an open invitation to everyone to vist the contact page of my website www.noexpertsneeded.com and submit your MOL answer for future books in the series.<BR/><BR/>Again, thank you very much for the honest, insightful, and respectful writing.<BR/><BR/>Long live the art of conversation..<BR/><BR/>take care,<BR/>Louise Lewis, Author<BR/>"No Experts Needed: The Meaning of Life According to You!"<BR/>www.noexpertsneeded.com<BR/>(Google Book Search for free chapters)No Experts Needed: The Meaning of Life According to "Bikers"!https://www.blogger.com/profile/12220248008189935828noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4714546599403078772.post-46314975444512576682007-09-26T14:41:00.000+01:002007-09-26T14:41:00.000+01:00Huxley was an interesting and enlightened 19th cen...Huxley was an interesting and enlightened 19th century mind. Nice quote. Started a good bloodline, too.<BR/><BR/>I'm more of a heaven on earth guy, so I definitely agree with you on the overly simplistic depiction in that Alpha Course ad. Seems they are looking for sheep, not shepherds.<BR/><BR/>I'm not a Christian, but I am a theist, though I acknowledge no proof beyond intuition of the existence of God. As I just commented on the "et tu" blog, where I found yours, to me the more relevant question that "Does God exist?" is "Will my life be better with a God in it?". If the answer were no for me, I would be an atheist.<BR/><BR/>By the way, I'd say that over half of my friends are atheists.Oryx Orangehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04400054918265383993noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4714546599403078772.post-39174247215431799962007-09-26T08:31:00.000+01:002007-09-26T08:31:00.000+01:00Matt - thanks for commenting. I'm always intereste...Matt - thanks for commenting. I'm always interested in hearing other points of view, and feel free to stop by anytime. Of course, I don't believe that all Christians fit into one particular category, or that all believe exactly the same things - but I do believe the points of view I set out are very prevalent in the way Christians view atheists, and it's much easier to write without continually making exceptions, or qualifiers such as 'many theists'! Maybe I should have a permanent disclaimer on my site somewhere, that I'm aware that my characterisation of theists for the purpose of articles is not universally applicable? As to what has led me to believe that we make our own meaning in life, I can't really see how it could be any other way. Meaning is only ever relevant to yourself - if you feel that the meaning of life is to give greater glory to god, that's only because you personally attach meaning to this. I'm afraid my blog has only been going for a little over a month so I don't have an extensive back archive yet, but you raise some interesting points that I will definitely think about blogging on in the future.Ben Dhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01430188441472807944noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4714546599403078772.post-83126304346665087662007-09-26T05:27:00.000+01:002007-09-26T05:27:00.000+01:00You bring up some excellent points about the assum...You bring up some excellent points about the assumptions of Christians. Three points in particular stood out to me. 1)Many theists/Christians tend to assume the feelings and beliefs of atheists, but have never talked to or even met one. 2)Many theists/Christians have an odd belief that there is no reason for sorrow when one dies, because eternal life...or at least life after death is assumed. 3)Life is often treated as a "rest stop on the way to eternal bliss." If I'm understanding you correctly, this assumption likely leads one to treat life as less precious and that our actions tend to be less important. Great points, assuming I'm not putting words in your mouth.<BR/><BR/>I suppose I should say at this point that I'm a Christian, but found your article challenging nonetheless. If I have a criticism to offer, it would be that I think you have lumped all theists and people who claim to be Christians under one general category. Some of what you said hits home for me, but much of it is not true of what I believe, nor do I believe the Bible teaches some of what you've heard from other Christians. A few friendly points:<BR/><BR/>1) In my own life I do not know any atheists, but that doesn't stop me from getting a general idea of what they think and feel (I'm reading your blog, and I've been trying to make it a habit to read others in order to challenge my own assumptions). There are not very many Christians like me who care to challenge themselves by stretching their faith, but there are some. Your point is granted that some of the most vocal Christians ought not to speak for atheists, because they have not really looked into what they in reality believe.<BR/><BR/>2)I've also heard a number of Christians make stupid statements like, "There is no reason to mourn the death of so-and-so, they are in a better place." In my belief, it is true they are in a better place, but certainly death is something to grieve. Jesus himself wept when one of his best friends died. Christians believe that death is the enemy. We do look forward in hope of the resurrection of the dead and the opportunity to see loved ones again in the future, but that in no way means we should no mourn in the present. Death is a very sad thing. Christians who believe otherwise are not reading the same Bible that I am.<BR/><BR/>3)I think you also rightly imply that Christians can tend to put little importance on this life because it is just a "rest stop." This is true of many people who call themselves Christians, but I do not believe this attitude should be the Christian perspective. The Bible does teach that we have eternity for which to look forward, but that should inspire us to use the time we have in diligent obedience of what God has called us to do. We are certainly to have the perspective that this life is all there is, but such a perspective should not lead us to live life as though it is not important. Sadly many who call themselves Christians do not think that the way they live their lives matters. I would question whether or not they are really Christians...let alone if they've ever really read the same Bible that I read. (Feel free to identify a post where you cover this...I'd be interested to read it).<BR/><BR/>4)I think you've rightly identified a default answer Christians give to many questions of meaning in life: "to give greater glory to God." As a Christian I think this is the ultimate answer that we must give. I, however, don't think that most people who call themselves Christians really understand what that looks like practically. It is a concept which at some point we must take by faith. I look at all the evidence around me and come to the firm conclusion that there is indeed a God and that he must be worshiped. You look at all the evidence and have concluded that there is no God. My point of contention with your point is that you are making the opposite assumption...one that you eventually have to make when you come to the conclusion of atheism, namely that "We make our own meaning in this life - we can choose what we are here for," etc. My challenge to you is, what has led you to believe that we make our own meaning in life? Maybe you've already answered that somewhere else in your archives, so I might find it at some point in the future.<BR/><BR/>I suppose there is more that can be said both positively about your article and points at which I have some contention, but I'll leave it at this for now and hope for some positive correspondence in the future. I'll check back to this post soon and I'll snoop around your other articles. So far I find what you have to say very challenging.Matt Winquisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09840589629093481020noreply@blogger.com